Episode 214: Leading with Hope

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[00:00:00] Sara: Unedited transcript follows. Listen to the recording for corrections or omissions. Welcome to leader cast episode 214.

[00:00:04] you're listening to leader cast, transforming missions podcast with Tim bias and Sarah Thomas. Providing you with resources to navigate the challenges and opportunities of courageous christ centered leaders

[00:00:23] Tim: Well, before we um, jump into our focus for today. Let me give you a little review that in episode two 12, we focused upon hope filled encouragement for Christ centered leader. And in our last episode, episode two 13, we focused upon weekly reminders of God's presence and power. So this week we're on reason or goal number three, discipling you to lead with hope,

[00:00:54] Sara: And what are those three goals related to Tim?

[00:00:58] Tim: hope throughout the year.

[00:01:01] Sara: So if you've missed one of those episodes, jump back to the very first episode of the year, 211, where we set that all up and you know why we're talking about these three goals and you can find them. Those episodes on the show notesPage@transformingmission.org forward slash 2 1 4. On that page, you can also find a link to information about hope throughout the year, our invitation to you to be a part of writing a devotion for this devotional.

[00:01:38] Write a devotion for a devotional how's that that we are putting together in 2022.

[00:01:43] Tim: Yeah, Sara we're focused on helping to resource Christ-centered leaders or leaders who are Jesus followers. So we can say to our listeners that while you are a Christ-centered leader, you're also a Jesus follower.

[00:01:58] Sara: Right. And so, as we focus on hope throughout the year, we want this to be a resource for leaders for you. We are a leader in your walk with Jesus, a place where, as we're asking questions about the intersection of faith and daily life, where we're inviting you to live into the beliefs that you talk about, preach about and teach about where we're practicing.

[00:02:21] The means of grace. works of piety and works of mercy, and where at the end of the day, we model forgiveness and love.

[00:02:30] Tim: So what would that look like?

[00:02:34] Sara: Well, gosh, it can look like a lot of things. The most obvious is what we've already mentioned. The devotional. We're putting together around hope throughout the year and not just the devotional that we're putting together, but anyway that you're focusing on reading the scriptures and prayer and reflecting on your faith.

[00:02:54] So in a more formal way, it might look like teaching. It might look like classes that you're a part of and then building on that, it might look like the integration that happens from the learning. You've had from those classes are teaching into your everyday life. It might look like coaching. Having someone coming alongside you to help you to grow in your faith.

[00:03:19] It might look like mentoring being in a relationship with someone who is a little bit farther along in their faith journey. You're trying, not trying to emulate them because we don't want to emulate another person, but you see in them how they are living a life, a Jesus life. If I can say it that way.

[00:03:38] And so developing a relationship with them, it might be reflecting. You've heard us talk often on this podcast. The ways that Tim and I reflect each day on, whereas Jesus showing up and where are we experiencing? God's goodness and grace in our lives. It might be in responding to simple question.

[00:04:00] And of course you're already thinking it. So I'll just say it prayer.

[00:04:05] Tim: Sara let's if it's all right with you, let's start with a simple one today. The means of grace.

[00:04:13] Sara: Yes, since we're going to be talking about this for a whole year this is just an introduction. And so let's talk about the means of grace. There's a lot there too, but this will at least get us started.

[00:04:27] Tim: So I'll begin with, I'm stating the obvious, if that, if I may say it that way, that being a follower of Jesus is impossible without God's grace. God comes to us, saves us, provides for us, holds us close in the way God chooses to do so. So, so the obvious statement is you and I neither choose the way God brings about our transformation, nor can we command God to make us Jesus followers. Yet, we can choose to use those means of grace, which have consistently been used by God. To draw us toward him to recognize grace. So unless we develop the ways God has provided Well, will not produce the fruit of discipleship or experienced the joy of becoming who God created us to be. Now how's that for stating the obvious.

[00:05:24] Sara: Well, it, it may be stating the obvious to you, Tim, but you and I both know that sometimes it's the things that are obvious that need to be stated so that people can step into them and know. What it is they need to do to continue growing as a disciple. And that's the whole point of this goal is to disciple you all to lead with hope.

[00:05:50] And so listening to you say, say that to him. What I was thinking was, gosh, you are a good Wesleyan United Methodist. 'cause where did you start? You started with God's grace and you, you move through that in how it works in our lives. And why do I say that? I say that because John Wesley believed that the grace of God was freely offered to everyone and he believed that God used the means of grace to offer the benefits of grace to all believers.

[00:06:28] And I would go as far as to say. Because we have this thing called Ravinia and grace, right. That grace is available to everyone. And, and those, the means of grace can also be a converting grace. We won't go down that rabbit hole. I'll just leave that there unless Tim wants to push back on what I just said.

[00:06:55] Tim: Well, no, we'll have another episode about means of grace in a few weeks. So maybe we can address it.

[00:07:02] Sara: And part of why I say that is I'll just say one more thing is for me as someone who was not raised in a church and came to faith later in my young adult years it was these very means of grace that helped me to come to faith. So that's part of why I say that very personal experience there. So for Westland.

[00:07:25] It was his belief that regular and consistent use of the means of grace put us into a healthy relationship with God and with one another.

[00:07:34] Tim: You're an example of that last statement you just made. You you've stated that yourself and then you are an example of a. Of how the regular and consistent use of the means of grace puts you into not only a healthy relationship but into a relationship with God, which has led you to where you are today.

[00:08:00] Sara: Yes. I, I would agree with that and sorry, I was where my mind was going. Is. We talk about growing in grace, I'm thinking about in seminary, how so many of my classmates had a hard time understanding prevenient grace because they couldn't remember a time that they. Believe in God, it was, it was such a part of their life growing up that they just, they grew into it.

[00:08:35] And, and so we would have these fascinating conversations about, well, yeah, but that was prevenient grace too, because at some point you came to the point where you went. God Israel. And you, you made a choice to believe you might've done that in a formal way with something that we call confirmation when you were a teenager, it might've happened in a less formal way that it was just, you know, that ordinary moment that you went, oh, okay.

[00:09:00] This now all makes sense. But it was so ingrained in the fabric of your life that you weren't thinking of it in that way. Whereas for me, I there are some pretty clear marks in my life that I can point to as being a little silly before and after. And so that whole journey of growing in grace and the means of grace for as a part of that for me, are a very real and lived part.

[00:09:33] And without that, I don't know how. Twenty-five years of that journey would have even been possible.

[00:09:43] Tim: Well, what that reminds me of is going on to perfection as you're talking to that would be the Wesleyan way of saying it. I keep saying it as becoming who God created us to be a Wesley would have said that you and I, and all of our listeners as human beings, aren't strong enough or good enough to go on to perfection without God. so it's, God's help that comes through the use of the means of grace. And maybe another way of saying it is, and this is the way I'd say it is the means of grace are a way of awakening us to God's grace.

[00:10:20] Sara: Yeah.

[00:10:20] Tim: So the practice of God's grace helps us see God's grace or to recognize it in our, in our. So, I guess, to move on with why we're meeting today and talking about this is what does that mean for us regarding leading with hope?

[00:10:43] Sara: So, what we're going to do is just give you a few ideas and that. We're just planting seeds in this moment. And there's more to come on on all of this in a future episode. So maybe a place to begin is the means of grace give access to God's presence in, in the world, in our everyday life. So a very simple way to practice.

[00:11:11] This is to ask yourself the question where have you seen God at work?

[00:11:20] Tim: And the means of grace, keep us on the path of becoming who God created us to be, or that path of, of being perfected in, in, in God's love. So maybe a question you could ask yourself every day is how have I been growing in my faith or what took place today that moved me a little farther down the path of that perfection.

[00:11:47] Sara: And, and as I think about where we're at in the journey through the year, we're now at the end of January, you might've made some new year's resolutions that probably aren't holding. Might've set some goals at the beginning of the year that you're now trying to live into or seeing how those are going to happen.

[00:12:08] And maybe the question that Tim just asked is the question that you can pause and ask right now, as you think about the last year, how have you grown in your faith from where you were at in 2021 to where you're now at in 2022? Yes. And how might you grow in the year ahead? That doesn't it doesn't end. Doesn't end today.

[00:12:34] Tim: I want to tie it to hope throughout the year with hope that part of the pattern that we've even asked you to follow in terms of, of of a study is to read, reflect, respond, and and return and what greater way and practicing the means of grace at the end of the day. When you returning to think about what you've experienced, how the scriptures come alive what better way to ask the better time to ask the question?

[00:13:04] How have I grown today in that faith and make that an everyday question?

[00:13:11] Sara: Yeah. So let me ask you a question on that, because let me give you the reason I'm asking the question. I have a hard time seeing where I've grown in the short term and a much easier time seeing places of growth or places that need growth. When I look at. A bigger stretch of time. So when you ask that question on a daily basis, can you give us an example of what you might say?

[00:13:47] I'm thinking of, of one that I might say, but I'm curious,

[00:13:52] Tim: Well, let me give you an example. A few years ago, I had a little heart episode and had to have my heart put back into. So I'm in a, in a room that as far as I'm concerned is cold and it says flight is anything that I've seen before and I've covered with a blanket, but then I've got a anesthesiologist that's smiling down at me and saying what we're going to do is you're going to, you're going to be on a Twilight sleep.

[00:14:24] And when you wake up, everything will be okay. And so I, I looked at her and I said, well, you're the one who's going to put me to sleep. And she smiled and said, no, I'm the one who will wake you up. And so part of what I think about I mean, that was my epiphany. If I could say it that way since we're in the season of this journey.

[00:14:45] But what I think about every day is what, what really awakens me to God's presence. And, and, and where have I missed that today? And sometimes I miss it because I'm already passing judgment on situations or on people. And those are the times I, I give God thanks that God would remind me of that, but also ask God to help me move beyond that.

[00:15:13] So I can be the person that, that God needs me to be. So sometimes it happens. By thinking about it and reflecting on the day I've been doing that for a number of years. So it's not like I just started in and it just happens. But I agree with you over a longer period of time. It's much for me, it's, it's much easier to, to see where that growth has been over a longer period of time, but I'm.

[00:15:41] convinced it's because I'm asking the question every day. That gets me to that place because it's very easy for me just to say, and may I put it this way? This is not a theological way to put it and this'll help have everybody praying for me. It's a whole lot easier to say to hell with that and do it a different way than it is for me to say, God, thank you for showing me what I needed to know.

[00:16:08] Sara: Yeah. And, and you hit on what was coming to mind for me, it's usually in the way that I responded. Or didn't respond to another person that, that I am thinking, okay, that's a place that I need to continue growing, or you, you responded much better to that. Then you would, then you would have done, you know, even last week or even yesterday.

[00:16:33] So I agree with you. I think it's the, the ongoing practice of that. And isn't. What really the means of grace get at is that ongoing practice and, and relationship.

[00:16:48] Whatever you're experiencing, good, bad indifferent in your life, practicing the means of grace are going to keep us close to God. So if you're saying to yourself, I want a more vital relationship with God practice. The means of grace.

[00:17:04] Tim: And if you truly want to grow as a follower of Jesus practice. The means of grace.

[00:17:12] Sara: Or if you're experiencing being paralyzed by fear practice, the means of grace.

[00:17:20] Tim: you're like me, there are times you feel isolated and alone. When you feel isolated and alone practice, the means of grace.

[00:17:29] Sara: And Tim has said this several times already on this episode. So I'll say it this time. If you want to become who God has created you to be practice the means of grace, the means of grace are just, that means to help you encounter in, stay close to God. And if it's not clear, let me just say this. I don't know anyone who walks closely with God, who is not a person of hope

[00:18:03] said positively. The people that I know who have a relationship with God and continue to grow in that relationship and are seeking to become who God created them to be are generally people of hope

[00:18:19] Tim: well said.

[00:18:22] Sara: Let's you think that following Jesus was easy in Wesley's time? It wasn't, and it's not easy in our time either, but God has given us the means of grace and makes them available for us to stay connected with, with the one for whom all things are possible.

[00:18:41] Tim: So Sara, I'm going to give you my opinion here. It's going to be kind of tough, but it's inconceivable that you should live a transformed life without tapping into the resources that God has provided. That are working that are doing the transforming work within you. I mean, so this is so I'm going to say it's simple.

[00:19:06] The mains of grace is a resource that God provides for that transforming work within each of us. So maybe the question is, and this will Maybe bring it a little closer to what we always talk about means of grace, because this is the way I'm going to say that I always deflected the means of grace was just saying, well, I can list them in my mind.

[00:19:33] I know what they are. So, so do you need a little help and leading with hope and how to use those means of grace?

[00:19:43] Sara: Maybe you'll practice using them and practice every day for the next month. Read the Bible and we've given you a pattern to follow, read, reflect, respond, and reach.

[00:19:57] Tim: And, pray daily, and that would be personal personal prayer as well as a corporate prayer. When you're praying with with others, make prayer, a regular practice.

[00:20:10] Sara: Participate in worship, actually worship. And I won't go on a little mini sermon at here, but don't attend church. Worship, the living God that we know in Jesus, there's a difference.

[00:20:27] Tim: And Sara, may I, I say I've heard a lot of pastors say or preachers say that that they need to be in worship. And, and not that leading worship is not important, but they feel like they need to be in a place of worship where they're not necessarily the leader. What about the technology that gives us an opportunity now to worship in ways we've, we're not worshiping before God's provided another way for us to experience the means of grace in worship.

[00:20:56] Sara: Absolutely.

[00:20:59] Tim: then, and then one of them, which I think, I think it's beginning to become more central to who we are because it became more of a ritual. My opinion, my perception is just receiving holy communion.

[00:21:16] Sara: Yeah. And then there's this last one. We're going to, I'm going to talk about it in an unusual way that for many of you and that's fasting, I can not fast from food and drink because it affects my blood sugar and would result in me being hospitalized, not a good thing for, for anyone, but as we were preparing for this, Tim reminded me that there are other ways that we can fast.

[00:21:50] And some, I do naturally, like my television might not get turned on for a week now, whether I've chosen to do that intentionally or not that can be a way of fasting, fasting from technology altogether. Put the stinkin cell phone down for a day. Change your message on your. Your voicemail and do an auto responder on your text messages.

[00:22:19] Don't have my phone with me. We'll get back with you as soon as possible to create that space and for you simply to be present and pay attention to God. And, and I think for here's another one for you, and you're going to say, did she just say that fast from sweater? Some of you are customers

[00:22:44] fast from

[00:22:45] Tim: it's not true, Sara. I say it's not true.

[00:22:49] Sara: fast from it, you know, what are the thing? What are the things that this may be an odd way to say it, but I'm going to say it anyway. What are the things that have become idols in your life? Fast from using your credit card fast from shopping on Amazon, fast from being on social media. I mean, I could go on and on and on of the ways that we can fast, we tend to think about fasting in terms of physical nourishment or food and food and drink that we're fasting.

[00:23:20] I think about it in a different way, because I can't fast in that way for health reasons.

[00:23:26] Tim: So, however you would fast Sara, would you agree that. Within a period of time from whatever whatever you've led into the fast that reading the Bible and praying and being a part of worship might be part of what you do during the fast.

[00:23:46] Sara: Absolutely.

[00:23:48] Tim: That's how you keep focused in that.

[00:23:50] Sara: Absolutely. And I think for. For each one of these part of, part of the beauty and wonder, and grace that is offered to us in each one of those moments is we are placing our focus, that everything that I mentioned when it comes to, when it came to fasting, those are all things that are focused on that.

[00:24:23] And notice everything that is, we have said before, communion worship, praying, reading the scriptures, those are all things that help us as does fasting when we're, when we're doing it. The means of grace help us to go back to where we started, help us to stay focused on God. And there is the word, what I'm thinking.

[00:24:49] When we start to do things over and over again, and then become a pattern in our life, we move into a state of flow. And so the more that we do it, the easier it is for us to encounter God's presence in those moments, when we're doing it continually.

[00:25:18] Does that make sense?

[00:25:20] Tim: It makes perfect sense?

[00:25:22] I'm, I'm processing it because it's, it's so good that You know, this, the means of grace is a resource that that keeps us close to God. Now I just want to be clear and Sara, you'll say this better than I do. We can't force God to love us. We can't force God to redeem us or sustain us, but we can participate in the means of grace. Which means we place ourselves in a position to receive love and redemption and how God sustains us. That's how we receive God's grace and the good gifts that come each day by recognizing God's grace. Is that that's a way to say it, right.

[00:26:15] Sara: Yeah. And so before Tim, I asked you your final words of wisdom. I, let me say this in a kind of screwy way, have there been moments of worship moments that I have participated in worship that I walk out and go, I don't know what that was about. Yes. Have there been times that I have prayed and I'm like, okay, I prayed.

[00:26:41] And in the back of my mind, I thought, so what, and at those very same moments, God is using all of that. I just might not see it in that moment. And so if you think that every moment of prayer and reading the scriptures and worship and receiving holy communion and fasting is going to be filled with warm fuzzies, warm Jesus fuzzies.

[00:27:14] They're not, that's not going to happen, but that doesn't mean that we stopped doing them. Those are reasons that we continue doing. Because God is continuing to show up. We just might not be ready to see it and receive it in that moment. Or sometimes we might simply need an attitude check, keeping it real.

[00:27:42] So, Tim, what final words of wisdom do you have about this goal? As we think about hope throughout the year of discipling others to lead with.

[00:27:54] Tim: Always like, you're asking that question. Sara, you think I have words of wisdom? So

[00:27:59] Sara: Well, they are words of wisdom.

[00:28:01] Tim: What I have been thinking about as we've had our conversation today. Is that the means of grace actually help us recognize grace in our midst. I mean, where did you see God today? How are you growing? What are the things that keep us close to God?

[00:28:18] And one of the events that took place in my life, that actually was a life-changing event. I think I recognized it. I practice the means of grace. I was a pastor of the church in Peoria and, one of the the church was located right downtown. And so several of the places where people would sleep at night, people on the street would sleep at dinner at night, whether it was a mission the rescue mission or the salvation army, or the Y WCA. They'd be put out at six o'clock. I mean, they, they, they were awakened and they were put out at six o'clock and they would be back on the streets for the day on Sunday mornings, about seven o'clock first United Methodist church had opened its doors and on cold mornings These folks found a place where they could come and be warm and get donuts and coffee because it's seven o'clock somebody always had donuts and coffee out for the people who came for the first service and they were preparing it all for the people that wanted to come and greet each other before the service and that.

[00:29:33] So what happened was that these folks found their way into first United Methodist church. And the way it was always done as you served yourself, you get your own donuts and you've got your own coffee. And what began to happen was that folks off the street were coming in and filling their pockets with the donuts and taking their coffee and then leaving. So you can know what happened was that because I was the lead pastor, I got emails and phone calls and people stopping me and saying, we've got to, we got to do something about this. And there were things like blocking the doors and having somebody stand at the door and let people in who needed to come in.

[00:30:16] Sara: Yeah.

[00:30:17] Tim: There were things like you've needed to do something about this. So. You need to talk to the city about protecting the church and that kind of thing. And it was a lot of crazy things like that. And I called them crazy. Really? What was going through my mind was that we had talked about being people of hospitality. And so I began to ask, instead of us trying to keep them out, why don't we be hospital? And if you think about offering hospitality to people who would come to your house to visit, you would always offer them something to drink or to eat. You'd have them sit at the table and you'd serve them. So we began to have 35 40 people off the street who we now had people who would meet them at the door and take them down and have them be seen.

[00:31:13] And they served them, the number of donuts they wanted, the DAV and the coffee they wanted have all that's leads us to the place that after a while we said, we've got folks who are gathering here on Sunday mornings. Why don't we sing some songs and just read them a story? And I had a, a pastor on staff that said, I'd love to do that.

[00:31:38] He played the guitar, he went down and he'd sing some hymns. they didn't, they didn't participate much. They were eating their donuts and drinking their coffee. He began to read them some Bible stories and tell him some stories. And we actually, we began to call that the IE service. It was the early, early service at seven o'clock on Sunday morning. We had 35, 40 people that were there. The people who gathered usually sat on the other end of the room, but they eventually said, this is really foolish. If you are going to have a worship service here, we probably need to gather with you. So some of the people who'd been a part of the gathering to begin with, began to join in with worship and sit with the people and have conversation with them.

[00:32:21] That was good enough that. All that's to tell you that the man who I first met in the dumpster, in the back of the church, man, by the name of John who lived in the dumpster by the way. And when I told him he couldn't live there, he said, he said, Reverend, I protect the church. When people come to that door, he said, I scare him away. I mean, how can you fight that? All of this story leads up to the place of being able to recognize God's grace, because I'll never forget the day, the Sunday when they'd gathered and all of their rag tag kind of garments, you know, things too big for them trying to stay warm. Getting a little coffee, drinking, some donuts and having some people sing, some songs that John, the guy lived in the dumpster, he stood up and said, is it all right if I sing? And it was a moment of the spirit moving or a moment of grace when the pastor said you. And at that moment, this guy who had had difficulty with alcohol smelled of tobacco and, and living in the dumpster saying the Lord's prayer,

[00:34:01] no one ever complained about the people that gathered at seven o'clock on a Sunday morning anymore. And I think part of the reason that they didn't complain and you'd say well, that was a dramatic story. I think it was because we practiced the means of grace that?

[00:34:20] when grace showed up in our midst, dramatic as a man standing to sing the Lord's prayer.

[00:34:28] We recognize God in our presence. We had to be reminded of God's of God's presence in our midst when people wanted to come in and eat our donuts and drink our coffee. But when we became the people, God was creating us to be, there was a moment when we said our lives will never be the same. So when we talk about the means of grace, Sara, this is, this is what I think it means.

[00:34:58] And that is we become who God created us to be. So we can recognize God and the people around us who are becoming who God created them to be. And we just keep growing. will we be perfected in his life? I don't know. But we don't stop. We'll be totally perfected in the life to come well. Here's where our word comes from.

[00:35:24] We hope so.

[00:35:26] Sara: I've heard you share that story before. what a beautiful reminder of the ways that the means of grace work in us individually and corporately to help us continue to become the people that God created us to be. So thank you for. Thank you for reminding me and for sharing that with our listeners.

[00:35:48] And my last reminder for you is that you can find show notes for this episode. And if you need a few reminders of how you can put the means of grace into practice, head over to the show notes page, we'll list them there. And that's at transforming mission.org forward slash 2 1 4. And remember who you are is how you lead by.